I went to see Endgame again yesterday.
May. 6th, 2019 04:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pensnestBeast and I had talked of going to see Avengers: Endgame with our son last week when he finished work, but we forgot/didn't think it had been firmed into an actual agreement, and went without Boy. So we went again yesterday with Boy, and had lunch at the Chinese buffet beforehand. I was quite looking forward to seeing it again, as I'd enjoyed it first time through.
My Boy is not an avid MCU fan like Bun, and he was only so-so about the film when we talked about it over tea/coffee/Coke afterwards. And actually… after seeing it for the second time, I was better able to follow certain things (eg the progress of the Gauntlet across the battlefield) but enjoyed it a little bit less overall.
Anyway. Thoughts in random order:
First time through, the Emotional Moments got to me much more effectively than on a repeat viewing. Though I still really liked Tony meeting his father and finding him to be somewhat less of an asshole than he remembered. And I loved Steve finding that photo on Peggy's desk, and yearning.
Banner/Hulk—argh! I asked my son, the Aspie, what he thought of the big green genius, and he said with indignation that he thought it completely destroyed the whole point of the character. I was very pleased with him because bingo! I mean. An un-tortured Banner? A calm Hulk? What is the point? The only thing I can think of is that they wanted Bulk there to wear the gauntlet—but that, that right there, that could have been the perfect moment for Banner and Hulk to co-operate, to wield the infinity stones, without the hideous big green hybrid infesting the rest of the movie. They could have taken out the Chill!Bulk Selfies scene to make room for it. Gah. I *liked* Banner so much when he had a problem. Take away his problem and he's not interesting any more.
Tony and Peter - adorable. Tony with his little girl - also adorable. Little girl - totally adorable.
Bringing Captain Marvel in to this movie simply meant finding lots of reasons why she couldn't stick around. She's over-powered for the company she keeps. She's like a Star Trek transporter—such an easy solution to so many problems that they have to be out of order in order for the plot to work. I liked the idea of the appeal for help that showed up at the end of Infinity War, and I really enjoyed the Captain Marvel film, but when she shows up in this one, it really begs the question—why didn't they call her in sooner? Then they wouldn't have got into this mess in the first place. I bet she would have chopped Thanos' arm off like a sensible superhero.
Nebula got really interesting character development. I really liked that.
Time-line screwage, oh, so much screwage. I *think* that was supposed to be justified by the 'you can't change your past' discussion, but it turned into a right mess.
Girls Unite Against Baddies - huh? I didn't get any Yay! feels from that at all. Comes completely out of nowhere, goes nowhere.
America's Ass, though, I liked. It deserved some on-screen recognition!
I find it hard to believe that the entire world would still be sitting around in support groups after five years. Maybe not the entire world, but we didn't see a lot else, did we? There'd have been a lot of suicides, and with that plus the deaths resulting from the Snappening I should think we'd be looking at around 30-35% of the universe's original population. I think it's a pity not to have seen *something* of what the world had become. All we had was (a) lotsa rubbish not cleared away, (b) the memorials - which were actually excellent, (c) gangs of villains doing business as usual (plausible, but I'd bet cash a lot more people would give them a hard time, post-Snap). And Black Widow apparently running SHIELD, which was cool, I guess… Again, I hope there will be fanfic addressing what it was like during those five years, because otherwise there's no reason to believe those five years actually happened (aside from the hair). It could have been five minutes.
Hawkeye's peculiar vengeance. I mean. What? Yes, he was angry. I just don't understand why that would involve him murdering Mexican and Japanese gangsters. It's a bizarrely random thing to do, even for Hawkeye. Also, when Rhodey (was it Rhodey?) said "It's definitely him," I kind of assumed there would be arrows, otherwise how did they know?
I'd have thought it much more logical that he would seek out the tattered remnants of the only other family he'd known, ie Natasha. For goodness sake. Had he even bothered to find out if she was still alive?
On Natasha: well, I see why she ended up sacrificing herself. And I can't say it was wrong, but I can say that from the moment the exchange for the Soul Stone is made explicit, it was obvious what was going to happen. But… what if Clint had told her he *needed* to be the one to make the sacrifice? What if he'd said that he had to do it, because if it worked and they got his family back, it would be totally worth while even though he didn't get to be there, and if it didn't work and he was still alive he'd have nowhere to go and he would always wonder if he should have died, if he should have committed *everything he had* to the cause of bringing them back, if Natasha's presence might have made a difference to the result. I think they could have sold that. And it would have been *really* unexpected. Also, in that situation it might well be that the one who dies has the easier choice, because it's the last one they have to make. I can totally see Hawkeye needing the easier choice more than Natasha ever did.
Thor is fat now: shrug. He's still a superhero. Thor is an alcoholic now—considering what he's been through, that isn't an unreasonable response. It's not surprising, either, that the whole situation is played mostly for laughs, what with Chris Hemsworth being good at comedy, though it is stupid and disappointing. If Tony Stark didn't have Pepper and a delightful daughter, I could see him retreating into mind-altering substances, though it wouldn't have been played for laughs in that case.
I loved Captain America being able to wield the Hammer, and that Thor was happy about it.
Oh, and I loved Ant Man rescuing the guys who were buried by getting BIG. Perfect. On reflection, I really liked Scott Lang in this film. It was a pity they couldn't have him rescued by his loquacious friend, but I suppose it was three hours long already… though, it could have been a *great* way of showing how miserable the past five years had been, if Luis (?) had said maybe three sentences of explanation and been unable to say any more.
Thor going off with the GotG crew… yeah, I can see that. And, heh, I've been re-watching Black Sails, and Thor's calm insistence that of course Quinn is in charge reminded me of Flint. Thor will be captain two days from now. (Well, it's possible that Quinn will grow up in the next GotG movie, but I probably won't bother to see it because wow, what a bunch of jerks.)
Tony's obsequies: nicely done… until the camera moves on to the GotG crew and I'm thinking, what they heck are they doing there? Rocket and Nebula, sure, but the others are not civilised, kindly beings who'd be there to support their grieving friends, they're all jerks. Why are they there? Right, they're there so that every character in the MCU can be displayed paying tribute, not because there's any in-character reason why they would be there rather than at the nearest fast-food joint. Ant Man's gang pretty much ditto, with the proviso that I could actually see them being decent human beings attending in order to support a grieving friend/boyfriend, perhaps even with a side order of respect for Iron Man. You don't waste Michelle Pfeiffer and Michael Douglas, you put them on display.
The kid from Iron Man 3, that was a nice touch. (I admit to not recognising him first time round.)
I preferred Natasha's smaller-scale memorials. I mean, I've seen people around saying that her death was ignored/forgotten, but I have to disagree. There was the scene by the lake where they were plainly grieving for her and wishing her back. Thor was all, we have the infinity stones, of course we can bring her back; Hawkeye was, no, it's done. Bulk… threw a bench. And later, after Tony's obsequies, there were Hawkeye and Wanda, definitely remembering Natasha, a more intimate moment of actual, personal grief… though I'm not clear who they 'both' were, the missing ones who knew they'd won. I mean. Was Wanda referring to Tony? Because he did know they'd won, before he died, so, probably not him. Vision? Her brother? Who? Meh.
Steve Getting A Life. It's one of those Emotional Moments that on first viewing I thought, Awww, he gets to be happy with Peggy. Except no. Just no. I can't see Steve Rogers going back in time to spend his life with Peggy, as her husband, in the background. He'd have to Do Stuff, he'd have to let her know that Hydra was in there, he'd have to get involved in applying his super-strength to situations that needed to be dealt with. He would have been very, very noticeable.
Also, and for anyone who watched Agent Carter, this is important: Daniel. I really, really liked Daniel, and he's absolutely Peggy's type. And she canonically married *someone*. I reckon if Steve was going back to find Peggy, it'd be when their ages were properly aligned so, what, nine or ten years after the war. If Steve showed up in Peggy's life and found her married, what would he do? In my head there's some delighted poly stuff at that point, and I surely hope to read fic about it. However. Peggy had moved on. Maybe he just showed up in her life now and again—that, too, I could read fic about. But a life together, no. He wouldn't be Steve Rogers if he could shut up and stay quiet—and to imagine Steve Rogers living the quiet life and living it long enough to show up at the end of Endgame without it having made all kinds of giant ripples through the universe? Not possible. An infuriatingly stupid idea. Did they forget what character they were writing? (Yes, yes they did.)
If they wanted one of their heroes to die heroically and one to live happily ever after, it needed to be Captain America and Iron Man in that order. Now, I'm not actually in favour of that as a solution, because it would be neat and tidy, and that's not how stories should end. They just needed to remove Steve Rogers and Tony Stark from the picture because Future Movies! And it shows.
I did like the handing over of the shield to Sam. Character-wise, Sam's the one who deserves to be Captain America. Although… Bucky's the one with superhuman strength, which I would think is useful if you're actually being the superhero in the situation. But Sam has the character for the job.
Sebastian Stan was superhumanly pretty, oh. my. god.
Dear me, I apparently have a lot more Thoughts than I realised. Several of them ought to be fanfics, but I can't actually see myself writing them, so, eh.
Anyone? Or are you all discussed-out?
My Boy is not an avid MCU fan like Bun, and he was only so-so about the film when we talked about it over tea/coffee/Coke afterwards. And actually… after seeing it for the second time, I was better able to follow certain things (eg the progress of the Gauntlet across the battlefield) but enjoyed it a little bit less overall.
Anyway. Thoughts in random order:
First time through, the Emotional Moments got to me much more effectively than on a repeat viewing. Though I still really liked Tony meeting his father and finding him to be somewhat less of an asshole than he remembered. And I loved Steve finding that photo on Peggy's desk, and yearning.
Banner/Hulk—argh! I asked my son, the Aspie, what he thought of the big green genius, and he said with indignation that he thought it completely destroyed the whole point of the character. I was very pleased with him because bingo! I mean. An un-tortured Banner? A calm Hulk? What is the point? The only thing I can think of is that they wanted Bulk there to wear the gauntlet—but that, that right there, that could have been the perfect moment for Banner and Hulk to co-operate, to wield the infinity stones, without the hideous big green hybrid infesting the rest of the movie. They could have taken out the Chill!Bulk Selfies scene to make room for it. Gah. I *liked* Banner so much when he had a problem. Take away his problem and he's not interesting any more.
Tony and Peter - adorable. Tony with his little girl - also adorable. Little girl - totally adorable.
Bringing Captain Marvel in to this movie simply meant finding lots of reasons why she couldn't stick around. She's over-powered for the company she keeps. She's like a Star Trek transporter—such an easy solution to so many problems that they have to be out of order in order for the plot to work. I liked the idea of the appeal for help that showed up at the end of Infinity War, and I really enjoyed the Captain Marvel film, but when she shows up in this one, it really begs the question—why didn't they call her in sooner? Then they wouldn't have got into this mess in the first place. I bet she would have chopped Thanos' arm off like a sensible superhero.
Nebula got really interesting character development. I really liked that.
Time-line screwage, oh, so much screwage. I *think* that was supposed to be justified by the 'you can't change your past' discussion, but it turned into a right mess.
Girls Unite Against Baddies - huh? I didn't get any Yay! feels from that at all. Comes completely out of nowhere, goes nowhere.
America's Ass, though, I liked. It deserved some on-screen recognition!
I find it hard to believe that the entire world would still be sitting around in support groups after five years. Maybe not the entire world, but we didn't see a lot else, did we? There'd have been a lot of suicides, and with that plus the deaths resulting from the Snappening I should think we'd be looking at around 30-35% of the universe's original population. I think it's a pity not to have seen *something* of what the world had become. All we had was (a) lotsa rubbish not cleared away, (b) the memorials - which were actually excellent, (c) gangs of villains doing business as usual (plausible, but I'd bet cash a lot more people would give them a hard time, post-Snap). And Black Widow apparently running SHIELD, which was cool, I guess… Again, I hope there will be fanfic addressing what it was like during those five years, because otherwise there's no reason to believe those five years actually happened (aside from the hair). It could have been five minutes.
Hawkeye's peculiar vengeance. I mean. What? Yes, he was angry. I just don't understand why that would involve him murdering Mexican and Japanese gangsters. It's a bizarrely random thing to do, even for Hawkeye. Also, when Rhodey (was it Rhodey?) said "It's definitely him," I kind of assumed there would be arrows, otherwise how did they know?
I'd have thought it much more logical that he would seek out the tattered remnants of the only other family he'd known, ie Natasha. For goodness sake. Had he even bothered to find out if she was still alive?
On Natasha: well, I see why she ended up sacrificing herself. And I can't say it was wrong, but I can say that from the moment the exchange for the Soul Stone is made explicit, it was obvious what was going to happen. But… what if Clint had told her he *needed* to be the one to make the sacrifice? What if he'd said that he had to do it, because if it worked and they got his family back, it would be totally worth while even though he didn't get to be there, and if it didn't work and he was still alive he'd have nowhere to go and he would always wonder if he should have died, if he should have committed *everything he had* to the cause of bringing them back, if Natasha's presence might have made a difference to the result. I think they could have sold that. And it would have been *really* unexpected. Also, in that situation it might well be that the one who dies has the easier choice, because it's the last one they have to make. I can totally see Hawkeye needing the easier choice more than Natasha ever did.
Thor is fat now: shrug. He's still a superhero. Thor is an alcoholic now—considering what he's been through, that isn't an unreasonable response. It's not surprising, either, that the whole situation is played mostly for laughs, what with Chris Hemsworth being good at comedy, though it is stupid and disappointing. If Tony Stark didn't have Pepper and a delightful daughter, I could see him retreating into mind-altering substances, though it wouldn't have been played for laughs in that case.
I loved Captain America being able to wield the Hammer, and that Thor was happy about it.
Oh, and I loved Ant Man rescuing the guys who were buried by getting BIG. Perfect. On reflection, I really liked Scott Lang in this film. It was a pity they couldn't have him rescued by his loquacious friend, but I suppose it was three hours long already… though, it could have been a *great* way of showing how miserable the past five years had been, if Luis (?) had said maybe three sentences of explanation and been unable to say any more.
Thor going off with the GotG crew… yeah, I can see that. And, heh, I've been re-watching Black Sails, and Thor's calm insistence that of course Quinn is in charge reminded me of Flint. Thor will be captain two days from now. (Well, it's possible that Quinn will grow up in the next GotG movie, but I probably won't bother to see it because wow, what a bunch of jerks.)
Tony's obsequies: nicely done… until the camera moves on to the GotG crew and I'm thinking, what they heck are they doing there? Rocket and Nebula, sure, but the others are not civilised, kindly beings who'd be there to support their grieving friends, they're all jerks. Why are they there? Right, they're there so that every character in the MCU can be displayed paying tribute, not because there's any in-character reason why they would be there rather than at the nearest fast-food joint. Ant Man's gang pretty much ditto, with the proviso that I could actually see them being decent human beings attending in order to support a grieving friend/boyfriend, perhaps even with a side order of respect for Iron Man. You don't waste Michelle Pfeiffer and Michael Douglas, you put them on display.
The kid from Iron Man 3, that was a nice touch. (I admit to not recognising him first time round.)
I preferred Natasha's smaller-scale memorials. I mean, I've seen people around saying that her death was ignored/forgotten, but I have to disagree. There was the scene by the lake where they were plainly grieving for her and wishing her back. Thor was all, we have the infinity stones, of course we can bring her back; Hawkeye was, no, it's done. Bulk… threw a bench. And later, after Tony's obsequies, there were Hawkeye and Wanda, definitely remembering Natasha, a more intimate moment of actual, personal grief… though I'm not clear who they 'both' were, the missing ones who knew they'd won. I mean. Was Wanda referring to Tony? Because he did know they'd won, before he died, so, probably not him. Vision? Her brother? Who? Meh.
Steve Getting A Life. It's one of those Emotional Moments that on first viewing I thought, Awww, he gets to be happy with Peggy. Except no. Just no. I can't see Steve Rogers going back in time to spend his life with Peggy, as her husband, in the background. He'd have to Do Stuff, he'd have to let her know that Hydra was in there, he'd have to get involved in applying his super-strength to situations that needed to be dealt with. He would have been very, very noticeable.
Also, and for anyone who watched Agent Carter, this is important: Daniel. I really, really liked Daniel, and he's absolutely Peggy's type. And she canonically married *someone*. I reckon if Steve was going back to find Peggy, it'd be when their ages were properly aligned so, what, nine or ten years after the war. If Steve showed up in Peggy's life and found her married, what would he do? In my head there's some delighted poly stuff at that point, and I surely hope to read fic about it. However. Peggy had moved on. Maybe he just showed up in her life now and again—that, too, I could read fic about. But a life together, no. He wouldn't be Steve Rogers if he could shut up and stay quiet—and to imagine Steve Rogers living the quiet life and living it long enough to show up at the end of Endgame without it having made all kinds of giant ripples through the universe? Not possible. An infuriatingly stupid idea. Did they forget what character they were writing? (Yes, yes they did.)
If they wanted one of their heroes to die heroically and one to live happily ever after, it needed to be Captain America and Iron Man in that order. Now, I'm not actually in favour of that as a solution, because it would be neat and tidy, and that's not how stories should end. They just needed to remove Steve Rogers and Tony Stark from the picture because Future Movies! And it shows.
I did like the handing over of the shield to Sam. Character-wise, Sam's the one who deserves to be Captain America. Although… Bucky's the one with superhuman strength, which I would think is useful if you're actually being the superhero in the situation. But Sam has the character for the job.
Sebastian Stan was superhumanly pretty, oh. my. god.
Dear me, I apparently have a lot more Thoughts than I realised. Several of them ought to be fanfics, but I can't actually see myself writing them, so, eh.
Anyone? Or are you all discussed-out?
no subject
Date: 2019-05-06 04:07 pm (UTC):-)
I agree the twist of having Clint trade his soul for the soul stone would have been really good, and Clint is my favorite character. It would have gutted me, but in a good way. Since my headcanon for Clint involves unresolved trauma from the first Avengers movie, I totally bought him as Ronin on the loss of his family. And he looked delicious, so enough said. But as someone else said, he could be killing bad guys in America no reason to hunt down POC.
Luis recapping the five years would have been aces, yes! I wanted a post-credits scene with him recapping IW and Endgame, I thought that would be hilarious.
See the time-twistng was all in alternate realities, so in reality!prime Peggy was with unnamed husband who was probably not Steve. Steve would have influenced a different reality. I kind of loved all the time twisting to be honest. It is right up my alley.
Nebula's development was glorious to see. I'm looking forward to seeing it again just to see that.
SebStan was so pretty, this is true. But I also like Sam getting the shield so Bucky can retire if he wants.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-06 05:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-06 06:02 pm (UTC)'he like human jukebox'
Date: 2019-05-06 06:08 pm (UTC)I also love how in AM2 Ghost bursts out and is all "For God's sake" and you realize the poor girl has been stuck there listening the entire time.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-06 07:32 pm (UTC)I wonder how the airlines are supposed to be doing, post-Snap. Can't see Clint swimming to Japan...
I like time twisting, but I just didn't think this movie had thought it through. Someone - I can't remember who - posted that fandom can now go back to a 2012 in which Loki is on the loose and Steve knows that Bucky is alive, and something else which I can't for the moment remember. There's definite potential there, and I rather love the idea of seeing it explored. But the film itself was not, as far as I could tell, actually about doing that. Meh.
here from network
Date: 2019-05-06 05:40 pm (UTC)That would have been so much better than what we got (well, LOW BAR, but still). It would have fleshed out Hawkeye more, and I know the big spot of "dying for family" already went to Tony, but it's unusual for the guy to sacrifice himself! Sadly very predictable for Natasha.
It was a pity they couldn't have him rescued by his loquacious friend, but I suppose it was three hours long already… though, it could have been a *great* way of showing how miserable the past five years had been, if Luis (?) had said maybe three sentences of explanation and been unable to say any more.
Oh man, that breaks my heart. I'm so sad Luis wasn't in the movie.
ITA that it seems more like five minutes rather than five years. After five years everything would be in worse shape, or someone would pick up the garbage. It's obviously just there so Tony can have a family....
Re: here from network
Date: 2019-05-06 07:37 pm (UTC)Hmm. Thinking about it, I reckon ScarJo would have done the grief better, too, if they'd gone with my version!
no subject
Date: 2019-05-07 04:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-08 08:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-07 04:24 pm (UTC)That is such an excellent way to describe her.
You have very excellent thoughts.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-08 08:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-07 04:57 pm (UTC)Totally with you there. (and as I have a granddaughter exactly that age, it hooked me right away)
And I like the fact that Tony hesitated to join them because he knew instantly the risk of trying to fix the timeline.
Captain America - it's always possible that it was someone other then Peggy that he married. He missed the time almost as much as he missed her. He was a fish out of water. (but I gather it was supposed to be a separate timeline. the real puzzle is how he managed to return to the correct timeline. I'm guessing he came back when she died.)
I'm certain that Wanda was mourning Vision.
I think the more interesting fanfic is how people coped with the return. There's suddenly a five year age gap between members of the same family. A likely food shortage. People who have remarried, only to have their spouse return.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-08 08:14 am (UTC)And when they come back again, it's not a simple, Hi, let's get back to normal!
The film didn't really present the situation as determined by the Snap, so it didn't have to show how people coped with the De-Snap. I hope fanfic will do a lot of exploring.
no subject
Date: 2019-05-11 09:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-11 09:46 pm (UTC)They could have squeaked the timeline a bit and had Tony falling totally in love with a brand new baby. I admit, the child as presented to us was at just about peak adorability. Still. Grrrr.