Wobbling over canon

[pensnest]

I thought I'd got over the RPS wobbles ages ago. Actually, for someone whose first fandom definitely frowned on the Real People Fic, someone who didn't like actorfic, I think I sidled over to the dark side the wonderful world of popslash with remarkable ease.

But I'm having a bit of a wobble at the moment.


It's Lance, of course. He's given/giving us lots of fresh canon right now, *personal* stuff. Not releasing a new album and playing working with JC like Justin is doing, but insights into how he managed for years in NSync without talking about the fact that he was gay, and how shocked his family were to discover it. And, of course, there's Reichen. And while I'm charmed to the point of dissolving into a sentimental puddle by the photos of those two together, the fact that they are together makes me hesitant to write about them.

Hasn't actually *stopped* me, I admit, but I wibbled and wobbled about it, as ephemera_pop can attest.

So I'm trying to figure out, why the wibbly-wobbling? There are two things, I think, going on here.

With regard to Lance's revelations about what he had to go through, I think there's a lot to be written about that, but I wonder whether anyone's going to do so? The possibilities of Lance having to hide his homosexuality, and being afraid to come out, have already been explored in fiction. So maybe there's no generally-felt need to go into that. (Or maybe there is someone among you right now producing something? Hmm?)

As for his family, well, again, there have been all sorts of representations in canon already, from cool, understanding and accepting to screamingly homophobic, so perhaps the ground has more or less been covered. Or is it that, now that we *know*, there's not much fun to be had by writing fiction, where the fun is in the guessing, the speculating on possibilities?

I hope that we'll see more stories that explore both these things, although at the moment they both feel like tender spots. Also, there's the fact that Lance's sexuality seems to have been dealt with in silence rather than solidarity, which feels like a breach in the agreed fanon of "all for one and one for all", and it's a lot easier to retreat into crack!fic than to poke cautiously at this.

Still, it's not so much the revised canon of the past that troubles me, but the canon of present and future. Do I want to write L/R, I ask myself? Do I want to read L/R?

Um.

I think, after much cogitation, that it's a bit too real and a bit too immediate. I can happily write an explicit Trickyfish sex scene because, well, I'm making it up. And I *know* that if I were to do the same with Lance and Reichen (okay, digression: what are we calling these two? CareBears? 'Cause ColdFish just doesn't seem right) I'd be making that up, too, but...

I think I'm accustomed to being separated by time from the canon events in question, whatever they may be. It's easy to write fic set a few years ago, possibly because the people they were then aren't the people they are now, or, possiby, because there's already a clouding of fanon around everything.

And sure, I've responded with a quick drabble to things like the Lancelot Incident, and the Snowboarding Auction (oh, Lance, you do give *good* canon), but it's not the same thing! Maybe there's a degree of emotional distance necessary, too. When the Lancelot story came out, emotional distance was achieved by laughing like a drain. Seeing our two lovebears beaming at one another in a succession of venues doesn't provide me with that kind of distance, because the non-writerly part of me is too busy squeeing.

Perhaps it's also that I feel a wee bit lost without a background of existing fanfic. I find I'm a bit intimidated by the thought of being the first...

How is it for you?

Comments

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I've decided I can't even think about Lance/Reichen, in RL -- because it is real. So, yeah. Fic stuff (Trickyfish, etc) is okay... but that's as far as I can go with it. Otherwise it crosses a line I'm just not comfortable crossing. But that's just me, mileage may vary.

[pensnest]

I know what you mean. This is just me trying to figure out what *exactly* I think, and why. And also wondering if there's logic in there as well as emotional reasoning.

[luxshine.livejournal.com]

All my fics are sort of AU, so I rarely think about canon like that even when I write with the nsync chronology firmly open in one window all the time. Story of Us didn't gave me any problem because Lance is straight there (And really, since I hate doing 'everyone is gay' fics? Lance just threw my mental porcentage through the window in canon) and I need him as Joey's straight friend, so. AU. That's my defense.
However, I do understand you because when I saw a L/R fic announced in shinnyandnew my first reaction was 'uhm... no, that's a bit over the line', after I had written a scene in a Justin-centric thing I'm working on where Justin acknowledges the existence of Reichen, so, feeling like a big hypocrite right there and then until I realized that I wasn't focusing on Reichen, but using him as a, let's call it time-frame reference. So that's my line. I won't be writting/reading any L/R where they're the focus, because it's way too close for my tastes, but the more I think about it, I have no problems if they're a secondary character in the story because, well, if my squick-meter didn't went off with Joey/Kelly or Justin/Cameron -or Britney- as secondary couples, it would be a little hypocritical of me to treat Lance and Reichen differently.

Does that make sense?

[pensnest]

I had exactly the same reaction on seeing the shinyandnew post... And I agree, I'd certainly have no problems using Reichen as a 'supporting character', I think that's more justifiable than using, say, members of the sparkly boys' families as 'supporting characters', given that Reichen has his own degree of celebrity. I've mentioned Cameron, various parents and friends, etc, when they were logically 'part of the environment', and I don't see a problem with that.

The funny thing about this is (probably) that it was the act of compulsively writing a story about Lance and Reichen that made me try to think out how I do feel about this, and try to figure out the logic of my own position. I think it probably comes down to 'emotional logic'.

[luxshine.livejournal.com]

I'll admit that, for me? Reichen is a zero to the left in regards of celebrity, since I had never *heard* of the Amazing Race before all this (And in fact, for a while, I thought he was a racer. Silly me), but yeah. Enviroment= a.ok with me, smut or main characters? Unless it's a very obvious AU, I would have problems with writting it and reading it... although it also depends on the writer.

[pensnest]

Yep - I'd never heard of The Amazing Race until Reichen came into Lance Bass's life. And the posed photos of Reichen definitely did not appeal to me! It's only seeing his interaction with Lance that has changed that.

And yeah, it always depends on the writer, doesn't it!

[luxshine.livejournal.com]

I've seen very little of the footage, but the pictures I've seen and what *Lance* says about Reichen makes me feel guilty for having straight!Lance's fics. He looks like a nice boyfriend, all in all (And, well, he's hot. Go Lance!)

A good writer can make me read almost anything. I've read mpregs even when I hate the idea just for the writer. So if someone I already admire ends up writting L/R, I'll probably read it. As long as it's not smut. That's pretty much my personal line right there. RealCouples!Smut is so not my cup of tea.

[pensnest]

Funnily enough, I didn't think Reichen was hot, before all this couple-y footage arrived. He's *too* perfectly handsome for my liking! But he does have an endearing grin.

[msktrnanny.livejournal.com]

I'm with Kim. Lance is dating Reichen. Fact. fiction is very separate from that. I think anything anybody wrote before Lance confirmed their status is fine, all written in good faith of fiction, but man. I'm not going to be messing with people's actual relationships. That's just. No. I try to shy away from even including Brit, Bobbie, Cam, Dani et al. The stuff we write is just so far from reality. I always think of it as 'mental acting'. In other words, it's really not them at all for me, just their faces placed on the charatcers I've created in my head. Guess that's why I like AU's so much.

As to him 'suffering alone'. That was Lance's choice, and I have to be honest. He doesn't sound damaged for it. He sounds like a man who looked at his life, made a decision and did ok with it all. That may be wrong of me, but there you have it. As to the guys all backing him, they did. Just not by group hugs and a round of Kumbaya.

Opinions expressed in this comment may not match those kept by the maintainer of this journal or anyone else. Not liable, illegal in all states where they say so. Blah, blah, blah. :-)

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

eek! we're including disclaimers, now?? *g*

[msktrnanny.livejournal.com]

ahahahaha! no. I've just spent the last few days arguing everything with everyone, I was being sarcastic. You're safe.

How are you anyway?

[pensnest]

A disclaimer! Joy!

I suppose it comes down to that, really - that when we RPS (is that verbable?) we're doing it *because we know it's not true*... It would feel intrusive to write a story about Lance & Reichen's sex life. Although I have, in an oblique way, done one about Joey and Kelly's. Hmm. Dear me, I seem to be a very Bad Person. [I've also written fic derived from someone else's fanfic without even thinking of asking permission (seen the SGA kerfuffle?).]

As for Lance's way of dealing with being gay... I see what you're saying, that he *chose* to keep it secret (or at any rate unspoken), and in recent years he seems to have been perfectly happy 'hiding' in plain sight. I kinda hope some other people write serious stories looking at his teenage years, and the NSync dynamic, in the light of this information - I think it's worth mining. Also, I'd rather read it than write it myself!

[nopseud]

The thing which came over in the interviews and comments from Lance and all the guys to me was 'we all knew, we just didn't talk about it until he was ready to tell us.' Which seems just as respectful and supportive to me as anything else. I've been in exactly the same situation with friends.

[pensnest]

Real world, it works - but it could be ficced as a good thing or as a difficult and painful thing, and I'd be interested in reading stories either way. I mean, I see your point about it being as respectful and supportive as anything else - and then I think, but what if he wanted to talk about it and felt he couldn't? There are stories there! (Only I'm generally too trivial-minded to tell them.)

[faithette.livejournal.com]

You pretty much said how I feel (and probably much better than I could have said it lol)

Like I told raynedanser in chat this morning... writing porn about Lance and Reichen would be like writing porn about my r/l friend Heather and her husband. Just... wrong.

I could probably read schmoopy fic about them, and I could read/write them as supporting characters like you said... but never as the main characters.

And I'm finding it amusing that a lot of people seem to be using TrickyFish as an example since that's the same example I used in chat *snickers*

[pensnest]

As I'm writing these replies, I'm concluding more and more that it must be 'emotional logic' that applies. A case could be made that RPF is RPF, and a fictionalised L/R sex scene is no more real than a Trickyfish... instead, we're somewhat squicked by the idea of the former and charmed by the latter!

Trickyfish as an example? Well *of course!* My Friends have taste! ;-)

[duoshinigami.livejournal.com]

You make some good points and I like them. When I first started seeing the pictures of Lance and Reichen aroun (before Lance came out) I started thinking about them together. Even when it was possibly fiction it didn't settle with me and I couldn't quite figure out why.

Now that it is reality it makes me even more certain I wouldn't want to read about it. Maybe because that's a line I don't want to cross or perhaps because Reichen isn't a Sparkly boy and I am horribly biased. To be honest, both are probably true.

I liked this post, got my brain going.

[pensnest]

I think I could probably have written L/R fic if it hadn't all become public knowledge... hmm, except that I wasn't remotely interested in Reichen before seeing the pics of him staring besottedly at Lance! I did, to be fair, allude to his existence in a recent story, but carefully not by name.

Another thing that occurs to me is that while we are being supplied with lots of fresh canon in the form of pretty pictures of Lance and Reichen, and the occasional MySpace entry (really, who could ask for anything more?) we don't *need* fic about them.

Anyway, I'm glad to have set you thinking.

[sidra]

Another thing that occurs to me is that while we are being supplied with lots of fresh canon in the form of pretty pictures of Lance and Reichen, and the occasional MySpace entry (really, who could ask for anything more?) we don't *need* fic about them.

I wonder if this is part of it. When you read/write fanfiction you're expanding on a universe that exists. Changing it, fictionalizing it, whatever, but it's a modification. To make it more interesting, or happier, or to understand it better, or to be a part of it, but in whatever sense it's an alteration. I don't think I want to change what exists between Lance and Reichen because (at least right now) it doesn't need to be altered. It seems like they're really happy together. Fiction can't make them happier. *shrugs* dunno. Just a thought.

[pensnest]

We *could* try to explain the relationship in fic... but there's a saying that happy people are boring, and for a ficwriter, I think that's true. It's the things that go wrong, or the things that are wrong and need to be fixed, that make for interesting stories. And, as you say, Lance and Reichen seem to be happy.

[ephemera-pop.livejournal.com]

If you notice, the only time I feel the need to put extra 'Not Real Fictin' headers on things are when they're very close to cannon-as-we-know it. And writing explicit Kelly / Joey kind of weirds me out a lot, because it's statistically more likely to hit close to the bone, or something. It's not a reasoned thing, it's an emotional knee-jerk reaction.

I *adored* with the fire of a thousand burning suns the fundraising ficlet that you wrote, because it was using fiction to 'make right' something where I don't like the canon-as-we-know-it.[1] Its exactly like fanfic in a media fandom fixing the episode where the writers screwed someting up, except our 'episode' is real life. I want it to be true, so the disclaimers that it's not are more important [also, because it's plausible in a way with stories with aliens and frog transformations are not.]

I don't know how comfortable I would be reading very explicit L/R stories, but either them in the background, or 12 rated stories, or stories about how the rest of them react and so on seem like fertile ground to me.

Although I think you have a point about the emotional distance.

[1] Actually, my Lance / Lancelot ficlet was mostly me doing the same for my own mental health, as I was very very uncomfortable with how that played out in the real media.

[pensnest]

Yes! - it was very much that 'very close to canon-as-we-know-it' thing that had me a-wibble about posting that story. And *thank you* for that analogy about it being like 'fixing the episode', yes, that definitely works, it's just what I was doing. Sheer wish-fulfillment writing! I do like 'fix-it' fanfic wherein we can make something happen that didn't, or hasn't, or won't come true in canon. I can very much see that your Lancelot story did that, too, and that was probably why I enjoyed it so much.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

My thoughts...

Even though it's RPS fic? It's still FICTION - it just so happens to be based on very pretty, sexy real people. I know it isn't real and in likelihood was never real/would never be real. Lance and Reichen is just... too much of a grey area for me. And I'm not sure one I would venture into myself - definitely not to write, and most likely not to read either.

In the meantime, pictures of the two of them reduce me to grinning like a complete goober because I love seeing Lance this happy and relaxed - something he hasn't really seemed in a while. And you can tell it's good with them the way they look at each other, which also makes me smile. A lot. :D

Eh. There's more, but I'm still working on piecing it all together in my head.

[pensnest]

Yep! I kinda wrote this and threw it out in order to help me sort out what I think. I was composing a note on canon a few days ago (can't remember why) and noted that the fan in me is in a happy state of squeefulness over the way Lance looks now, and the way his boyfriend looks at him. Aww! Whereas the popslasher in me almost regrets the sudden definition in Lance's life - I liked the ambiguity!

Fortunately, we fanfic lovers are perfectly accustomed to accepting more than one reality at a time, so it should work itself out.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

oted that the fan in me is in a happy state of squeefulness over the way Lance looks now, and the way his boyfriend looks at him. Aww!

Absolutely! I think that is why I have accepted him so easily. He comes off well... and seeing Lance and how happy he is is enough for me. I love the looks they give each other, love how they act together and yes, they look DAMN good together, too.

But fic with them as the main pairing? No.

[carta.livejournal.com]

Everyone's been leaving such profound comments! And my reaction is so shallow, but here it is. Reichen does not interest me in the slightest. He really doesn't - I don't watch TAR, so I don't have any carryover fannishness. What I read popslash for was the five guys being with each other in almost every permutation, grouping, or pairing. (Never could get into the Choey, but that was the only one.) It was Nsync fic in my mind, whether it was about all of them or only a couple. It was about the group dynamics and how friendships wax and wane, and Reichen isn't a part of that anymore than Bobbi or Cameron are. (I give Britney and Kelly a pass because they were there from the start.) Lance is happy with him, and that's awesome, but it doesn't make me interested in his boyfriend.

[pensnest]

That's much easier to deal with! Though now you mention it, I don't think I'm particularly interested in Reichen as an individual character at all, it's purely for his relationship with Lance.

[nopseud]

I don't have any problem with Lance/Reichen fic conceptually, and if I came up with an idea then I'd write it, although at the moment the state of the canon is such that I don't really feel the need. In the past I've written Justin/Cameron, and Justin/Britney, and come to think of it I wrote Lance/Jesse, too. So Reichen definitely falls well inside my RPS-writing comfort zone.

The only couple I do have a slight twitch about is Joey/Kelly. Firstly, Kelly's never really put herself forward into the public eye in any significant way -- I've probably seen fewer pictures of her with Joey than I did of Lance and Jesse together. Secondly, and more importantly, I always have this mental picture of Briahna, in a few years time, surfing the interwebs and finding fiction about her mum and dad getting it on with her godfather and, really, that just seems unnecessarily harsh.

Personal comfort zones, is the key. Read and write inside your own, or push it if that's what you enjoy, but don't ever feel like it's an obligation to do anything.


The thing with disturbed me about that shinyandnew post was the pairing smush. Because Leichen is traumatic, yet totally inevitable as soon as you think of it. As I said on someone else's LJ, it makes me want to write a story called 'He Grows On You'.

[ephemera-pop.livejournal.com]

I have just laughed until I stopped breathing ....

ohh I have been away from my pop flist too long!

[ephemera-pop.livejournal.com]

and failed to *paste* the quote I was refering to ... Because Leichen is traumatic, yet totally inevitable as soon as you think of it. As I said on someone else's LJ, it makes me want to write a story called 'He Grows On You'.

here - have an icon because I really do love your brain.

[nopseud]

The cool thing about 'Leichen' is that it would totally work as a word *inside* the story too. Celeb magazines are full of hideous pairing smushes like 'Bennifer', 'Tomkat' and 'Bradjelina', so it would only take someone with an evil sense of humour (like Chris) to come up with it...

Hmm. Maybe later. Am currently deeply embroiled in writing zero-G sex, with added tentacles safety straps.

[pensnest]

I think this is my way of trying to figure out what I do think, what I do want to write/read, etc. I nose around in other journals via metafandom quite often, and very often seeing other people's points of view helps me clarify where I stand. So, yes.

And, hee! Except that I pronounce 'Reichen' with a soft German 'ch' and it took me a while to figure out... oh, do write such a story. Pray, do!

[daisydust.livejournal.com]

I'm not an author, just an avid reader, but this is an interesting question so I thought I'd toss my opinion into the mix...

I don't have a problem with L&R fiction per se, but I'm not really that excited about it. The reason is quite simple...I don't have a strong attachment to Reichen. Don't get me wrong, I love "Lance and Reichen", but I love them because I love Lance and Reichen is obviously making Lance happy. If (when?) they break up, I will probably hate Reichen (especially if I think he hurt Lance) and I will stop following anything about his life. I already know this and it may make me a bitch, but that's just the way it is.

What I'm dying to read is "Lance is OUT!!!" fic. Things like:

- What happened when he finally talked to Justin?
Or maybe he never did - there's many a good story in why not. Many if which I'd expect to have lots of sexy flashbacks. ;)

- Who's envious? Maybe they're still in the closet? Maybe they want Lance for themselves, but feel they have lost their chance because they know he'll never go back to hiding.

- How about some cross-over? How is BSB reacting to the news? Can Howie (Nick?) come out now or would be be harder/old news after Lance's big announcement?

Reichen could be a supporting character in any or all of these stories, of course, but I'm not that psyched about having him as a main character. With the exception of the Seahorse story (featuring Trace), I can't think of a popslash story that really stuck with me in which the protagonist was someone other than one of the SDBs.

Of course, I am willing to be proved wrong here. If enough good writers give Reichen a "voice" that resonantes with me, then I probably will become attached. With NSYNC, I was already a fan before I discovered popslash, but I know that all of the great fiction I've read has reinforced my love for the guys. It's possible that it could do the same for Reichen.

[pensnest]

I know exactly what you mean about caring for Reichen purely because he's with Lance. I'm the same. (I wonder if there's anyone out there who was writing Amazing Race fanfics and is now thinking, oh, Lance Bass... okay...)

Your story ideas - yep, I wanna read those too. Incidentally, did you see my Chris finally asked me last summer ficlet over in fic_requests?

I think part of the reason I feel a bit lost on this topic is that there isn't existing fic. I'm not at all used to being one of the people who has the opportunity to write the first bits of fanon - as a latecomer, I came to a fanon that was already rich and wonderful. And since I learned my sparkly boys characterisation *from* fanon, if I do write (more) Reichen stuff it's going to be a different process.

[daisydust.livejournal.com]

That story was lovely! I can imagine Chris asking just like that. Thanks for sharing it with me. I don't know how I missed it before.

[pensnest]

Thanks - I'm glad you liked it. :-)

[withdiamonds.livejournal.com]

I find myself not wanted to read or write Lance/Reichen, and your post and the comments have also helped me figure out why.

First of all, I'm so glad I finished the Epic before Lance came out, because I used real events towards the end, and there was so much about Lance being out to everyone he knew almost his whole life, and I'm not sure what I would have done with the new knowledge of how he says it really was. Partly, I think, because it was new, and very different to both what I had written, and the way I would have imagined things to have really been.

When I write Timbertrick, or JuC, or whatever pairing, I know that it's not really true. I'm writing total fiction. Lance and Riechen aren't fiction. I've written about Britney and Kelly and Bobbie and Dani, even some sex, but I think I'm not uncomfortable with it because with them, I'm writing about people that were with the guys a long time ago. Reichen is so immediate, plus he's so important to Lance. I mean, Lance is *out* and that surprises me everyday, and Riechen is such a part of that, and they're obviously happy together, which-I feel all tangled up in this sentence, so I'm ending it now.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this, or good and bad reasons to feel one way or the other. But it is very interesting.

[pensnest]

I suppose we do have the option of ignoring canon, but somehow that doesn't seem right when what you're producing is a serious fic - so I'm also glad you finished the Epic before Lance came out. I can well imagine that otherwise you might have been in great difficulties!

It very much looks as though most people share the feeling that *real*=not-ficcable, which doesn't surprise me at all. Anyway, yes, it is interesting to see what other people think, and to try and figure it out properly for myself.

[trumpeterofdoom.livejournal.com]

I know I was asking why fic hadn't been written yet, and then I read what you wrote for A in fic_requests and realised why, just like you said, it's too real, too immediate. It really seems like we're encroaching onto stuff of the most private nature. Especially considering how hard and painful it must've been for Lance to hide it from everyone.

Something similar like this happened after I met Howie in person and, y'know, actually touched and communicated with the rest. I don't think I've written anything about him since, and that was in October of last year!

[pensnest]

Yep. Even while I felt compelled to write the story, it being one of those 'I want this to be true' stories, I was all kinds of wobbly about whether it was something I *should* be writing.

Interesting what you say about not writing Howie since you met him - that's the problem with being a fan and a popslasher, I think! The fan wants *real* information and real contact, etc, but the popslasher needs the guys to be far enough away (in time and/or space) that they can remain slightly unreal. Sometimes I daydream about meeting one or more sparkly boys, and then I think, no, I'd never be able to write stories again - and I have too many stories yet to write, I don't want to lose them!