pot pourri

[pensnest]

Firstly, I have been infected by that Remix meme, so if you correctly identify which one I wrote, I will write you a ficlet to request. Everyone has been saying that they think their story is Really Obvious, and I think my story is Really Obvious, too, but then again, I haven't guessed anyone else's so far... (Oh, turloughishere is Not Allowed to guess as she received a honking great clue a while ago.)

I invented an interesting variation on the theme of shepherd's pie yesterday: instead of the traditional lamb mince, I used lentils, leek, carrots, parsnip and shallots, and a prepacked Chicken Jalfrezi for excitement (because I'm too lazy to figure out which spices would really work). Worked very well, though I have promised a Proper One for supper today (which will include the excess lentillage, because they're there).

Beast and I did our customary strot yesterday even though he was taking a day off (usually it is a break from work), and normally spends his days off glued to World of Warcraft. We frequently talk of matters profound (ish), which is nice. Yesterday's topic was hand-holding. He began it, apropos of nothing, by mentioning that he'd heard/read recently of a culture in which it is normal for men to hold hands.

When we go out for our walks, we hold hands. I sometimes hold hands with Bun, too (though it's awkward because she is taller than I, but I am Mum, and it's difficult to figure out whose hand should be in front), but not, as a rule, with Boy, not any more. Do males in our (UK/US at any rate) society ever hold hands with anyone they aren't sleeping with? (Obvious exemption for small children.) I mean, I expect that gay couples hold hands if they are in an environment where it feels safe to do so, and the male half of most straight couples would hold his woman's hand.

Come to that, what about women? I'd... probably link arms with my sister or my best friend, rather than hold hands. My husband absolutely would not hold his brother's hand. Do people hold hands with friends at all? If not, why on earth don't we? Is holding hands really such an intimate thing to do? Now I'm thinking about it again, I think it must be, otherwise we wouldn't be so reluctant to do it. But, why?

Comments

[buddleia.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I routinely hold hands with the person I'm seeing, be they male or female (and, sadly, I do look around before holding a girlfriend's hand, but that's my own damn issues), but I only rarely hold hands with friends. It happens, but it's only in special circumstances, such as towing someone through a crowd at Camden market, or occasionally my very best mate and I hold hands while walking and talking. I never see English guys holding hands unless they are walking down Old Compton Street.
Holding hands definitely implies intimacy of a serious order.

[pensnest]

It's strange, though, don't you think? I mean, I just wonder why holding hands - rather than, say, linking arms - is such an intimate thing to do. Might it be because after eyes, hands are the most important way in which we interact with the world?

My own handholding practices map to yours, excepting the girlfriends.

[topaz119.livejournal.com]

I held my grandmother's hand whenever we went out, all my life, but the last time I held a friend's hand (female) was at the end of a very long Fourth of July and we might have been a teeny tiny bit tipsy and our other friend made us hold hands as we walked back to the car (coming off the Mall in Washington, DC, with a hundred thousand other peoples) so we wouldn't get lost. Does that count? ;)

[pensnest]

Ah yes, I always held my grandma's hand too, at least, until it was easier for her to balance if we linked arms instead. I spose the parent-child balance *never* tips to equality with a grandparent!

Nope, holding hands for purely practical reasons doesn't count!

[phaballa.livejournal.com]

Some people are really into holding hands and will do so with anyone. I don't like touching other people, period, unless I'm very drunk :P I think it's just a matter of personal taste.

[pensnest]

It's funny, though, I think our conversation yesterday went along the lines that males are not allowed to show one another affection in our society. Yet when I thought about it again today, I realise that I really don't hold hands with other people either.

I can't think of any friend I've had who's held my hand for anything other than practical purposes (eg not getting lost in a crowd). Not even friends who will happily spring into a hug.

[trumpeterofdoom.livejournal.com]

Back home, it is totally a-okay for teenage girls to hold hands, be they dating each other, BFFs, or mothers and daughters. If I'm feeling especially affectionate while out shopping with my mother, Ilink arms with her, and same goes for my own circle of friends. Basically, if you're a female, it's a get-out-of-jail-free card. Guys DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES hold hands unless it's for a joke. The only males I've seen back home holding hands are Bangladeshi/foreign construction workers, who see it as a form of solidarity, that they have a friend in the strange country that they've come to find work in.

[pensnest]

That makes sense for me, the sharp distinction between behaviour permitted for females and behaviour permitted for males. I *think* it's basically true here, but we're generally more repressed anyway!

I think Beast was referring to somewhere Indian where men expected to hold hands, but he couldn't remember whether it was India or "thereabouts" (*eyerolls*). But the solidarity-on-foreign-soil explanation is interesting.

[rikes]

I do link arms with my friends and family, but holding hands seems to be too much of a couple thing, I think.

[pensnest]

Perhaps it's because hands are such sensitive sense organs. Hmm.

[turloughishere.livejournal.com]

This was my first thought when I read this post. That hands are so sensitive. And also that touching skin-to-skin is always somewhat intimate and when the hand is involved it get even more so. I think...

Oh, turloughishere is Not Allowed to guess as she received a honking great clue a while ago.

*pouts* That's So Unfair!

I haven't had the time to read any remix stories today. I'm glad the reveal isn't until the 25th!

[pensnest]

I haven't got very far with them myself yet, which is not like me as I usually devour fresh stories!

[turloughishere.livejournal.com]

I think part of the reason reading remix stories takes so much time is that you have to read the original story too. At least I feel that I have to in order to properly understand the remix story and what the writer is trying to achive.

In case of the four stories I've read so far I'd already read the originals, but for the rest of them I haven't so that means twice the number of stories to read and that feels a bit overwhelming really.

[msktrnanny.livejournal.com]

Do males in our (UK/US at any rate) society ever hold hands with anyone they aren't sleeping with?

I have decidedly not had enough sleep since my brain processed that and the line after into something unsavory. Anyway, in a word. No.. lol. I've seen young male kids do it and older males hold the hand on young children, but as a show of affection it's rather unusual for non romantically involved people to do so in general. I have done it with friends, and have friends who do do it, but it does get looks. And then there is the interlace or just clasp issue, and if you're clasping who's hand is on top...... all of which is rather insane since hand holding in itself is an innocent show of affection and connection.

Do I think it's intimate? It can be. Yes! Hell yes, even. All the more reason to extend the affection to friends you are close to. It's not a strictly romantic thing, people actively seek out children's hands to hold under the guise of keeping them safe [which it often is] and simply hold on. Children seek that grounding and show of affection all the time!

I think it also has to do with how physically affectionate people are by nature. People who hug as salutation and touch to make a point while talking are likely more inclined to random displays of affection anyway. Reluctance most likely comes from societal views of what is an okay way to show that affection without assumptions being made about sexuality and proper behavior.

If five guys can do it on stage as choreography and we all make jokes about how gay said choreography is, I don't know what hope I hold out for hand holding as a nice way to let a friend know you care. Sad, that.

[pensnest]

Yes, young children hold hands without qualms, presumably because they're used to having their hands held. I remember when my Boy was about six, and on his birthday had a horrid allergic reaction to cut grass, and was all swollen up and miserable - I remember one of his school friends taking his hand to comfort him, and then leading him over to me, and how sweet I thought it was.

As for clasping, yes, that's an issue sometimes. When Bun and I hold hands, I like to put her hand in front, because she's taller than I am and it works that way - but she says it feels all wrong. Sometimes we solve that by interlacing fingers.

I'm pretty certain that women would be able to 'get away with' holding hands far more easily than men would, though even so, we'd be more likely to link arms. I don't think it would *occur* to most British men to do either - possibly in some European countries it might be more common for men to go arm-in-arm? I read a post in someone's LJ a day or so ago about how appealing it is to see/hear of males physically expressing affection for each other, in hugs or whatever, because of the level of closeness that seems to imply - but as I said above, my man wouldn't even hold his own brother's hand.

It is sad to think that we would so immediately translate handholding into 'gay', when it ought (I think) to be an expression of affection without necessarily having connotations of sexuality. I wonder how handholding came to be understood as 'reserved-for-bedmates' (and children, of course - but expressing affection for one's own children is acceptable, and there's also an issue of practicality involved there).

[ariadnem.livejournal.com]

My country is very "machista" You'll never see two men holding hands, not even if they're in a gay relationship, that's simply never going to happen. With women it's a lot different, we hug and kiss and hold hands and it's ok.

Anything that means men-men contact, even if it's not real, would be considered gay.

With your friends it's ok, but when you get a bf/gf you just stop doing that, it's considered disrespectful. I't'd even be considered a felony if you're married.

Funny thing is, my husband and I never hold hands when we walk on the street, we barely touch each other. Sometimes I hold his arm, but we usually just walk, or talk or whatever.

Now, speaking of the remix, gotta get myself into reading this week.

[pensnest]

I'm not surprised to find that the behavioural divide is even wider in some places - what strikes me as funny is the kind of wild ecstasy you can see on a football field, with the hugging and suchlike that comes when someone has scored a goal! Those macho sportsmen...

Interesting that holding hands even with female friends is not allowed when you have a boyfriend or girlfriend. The hand is to be reserved for the person who has 'sexual rights', even if there isn't any actual sex involved.

[ephemera.livejournal.com]

*thinks* - you're right - it is a lot more intimate than linking arms or hugging or leaning on people - all of which I do a lot with friends who I know are comfortable with it. I do hold hands with non-sexual-partners, but it's a smaller circle than those that I link arms with as we walk.

That said, I see emo teenager boys holding hands sometimes and don't automatically assume they're gay, although given their emo-ness it's entirely possible that they are consciously playing with that social boundary.

[pensnest]

I love the image of emo teenage boys wandering about hand in hand!

[turps33.livejournal.com]

My nanna still holds my hand when we cross roads. Which is something that amuses me every time. Apart from that, it's only James, and sometimes Corey when he forgets that he's too old for holding hands now *g*

[pensnest]

It does seem to be a grandmotherly thing - perhaps the child-generation can be allowed to grow up, but the grandchildren just don't!