A little attempt at self-analysis
Mar. 5th, 2007 10:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Well, now.
turps33 was wondering where the pop meta is... I dunno that I'm up to starting off any topics that fit the definition she and
withdiamonds have suggested, but I have been doing some vague musings about writing, and possibly someone else might like to muse along with me? If we stick to popslash, we'll all know who we're talking about.
I've been thinking about this for a while: I think it stems from one of the Writing Memes that goes around every so often. There was a question in there along these lines: which of your stories is the most revealing?
You see, I never used to think I was *in* my stories. When I was a Trekkie it wasn't really the kind of discussion that tended to happen, at least, not between Dataphiles, and I didn't really think about it, I just wrote what seemed to me to be something that was worth writing. But of late, I have at least begun to notice that I am indeed in there.
It can be in the simple things - like, if I have Justin admiring the pretty picture Lance makes when he's eating a strawberry, that's mostly me in there thinking it would be awful nice to see Lance eating a strawberry. Yes. I mean, I think it's obvious that if I'm trying to present a hot image, I need to believe it's a hot image. Why are so many of us delighted by fics involving masturbation, especially masturbation-with-an-observer? I'm pretty sure that's the same kind of thing.
The next step down, though, is to notice the way my own preferences come through. See, when I put Chris and Lance together, it's Lance making the first move. When I put Lance and Justin together, Lance is the more dominant of the two. Haven't really looked at the other pairings I've written, but it's clear to me that in these two cases, I want Lance to take the lead because essentially I see him as the 'weaker' of the two. With Chris, Lance is at a disadvantage because of age, mostly, and 'life experience'. With Justin, hmm, I think I *have* to see Justin as the less proactive partner in order to achieve some kind of Cosmic Balance. I mean, he's **Justin Timberlake**.
I think this is probably because I don't like/feel entirely comfortable with inequality in relationships, and have to do whatever it takes to balance the relationship, if there is an imbalance to begin with. (I suspect that for other people, this would actually take the form of deliberately *emphasizing* the inequality and exploring it.)
Also, I don't, I think, write pairings in which they have sexually immutable roles (the nearest to a definite Top/Bottom distinction is in Lambs—where admittedly, Lance is always bossy, but not always on top!). I like to think that my boys, whichever boys they be, take turns topping. Or, well, maybe they don't take *turns*, exactly, they just do whichever they prefer at the time. Comes back to the same thing—I don't like the idea of relationships in which there is a set pattern. They have to share stuff—sex here, I suppose, standing for all kinds of other aspects of the relationship.
Another point: I find it easier to write explicit slash than I ever found writing explicit het*. (This is something that cropped up in one of the slash panels at Redemption.) And here, I'm pretty sure it's precisely because I'm not obviously involved in the scene—I am, as a female, necessarily, an observer and not plausibly a participant. I found it difficult to get the balance, in het scenes, between writing something that I would find a turn-on, and revealing too much entirely personal information. As a reader, too, I required much more precise targeting when reading het: if the female partner has a reaction that I don't share, or enjoys something that leaves me indifferent, it's harder to remain involved. Again, with slash, I'm not 'in there' in the same way. And because I'm an observer, because I can't identify closely with either male, I can identify with both. I think perhaps that it comes back to the disliking of set patterns...
So there's a modicum of self-examination. Thoughts, anyone? How is it for you?
* strictly speaking, I think I'm mostly a writer who prefers not to get too explicit, but sometimes, well, sometimes the porn *is* the story.
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I've been thinking about this for a while: I think it stems from one of the Writing Memes that goes around every so often. There was a question in there along these lines: which of your stories is the most revealing?
You see, I never used to think I was *in* my stories. When I was a Trekkie it wasn't really the kind of discussion that tended to happen, at least, not between Dataphiles, and I didn't really think about it, I just wrote what seemed to me to be something that was worth writing. But of late, I have at least begun to notice that I am indeed in there.
It can be in the simple things - like, if I have Justin admiring the pretty picture Lance makes when he's eating a strawberry, that's mostly me in there thinking it would be awful nice to see Lance eating a strawberry. Yes. I mean, I think it's obvious that if I'm trying to present a hot image, I need to believe it's a hot image. Why are so many of us delighted by fics involving masturbation, especially masturbation-with-an-observer? I'm pretty sure that's the same kind of thing.
The next step down, though, is to notice the way my own preferences come through. See, when I put Chris and Lance together, it's Lance making the first move. When I put Lance and Justin together, Lance is the more dominant of the two. Haven't really looked at the other pairings I've written, but it's clear to me that in these two cases, I want Lance to take the lead because essentially I see him as the 'weaker' of the two. With Chris, Lance is at a disadvantage because of age, mostly, and 'life experience'. With Justin, hmm, I think I *have* to see Justin as the less proactive partner in order to achieve some kind of Cosmic Balance. I mean, he's **Justin Timberlake**.
I think this is probably because I don't like/feel entirely comfortable with inequality in relationships, and have to do whatever it takes to balance the relationship, if there is an imbalance to begin with. (I suspect that for other people, this would actually take the form of deliberately *emphasizing* the inequality and exploring it.)
Also, I don't, I think, write pairings in which they have sexually immutable roles (the nearest to a definite Top/Bottom distinction is in Lambs—where admittedly, Lance is always bossy, but not always on top!). I like to think that my boys, whichever boys they be, take turns topping. Or, well, maybe they don't take *turns*, exactly, they just do whichever they prefer at the time. Comes back to the same thing—I don't like the idea of relationships in which there is a set pattern. They have to share stuff—sex here, I suppose, standing for all kinds of other aspects of the relationship.
Another point: I find it easier to write explicit slash than I ever found writing explicit het*. (This is something that cropped up in one of the slash panels at Redemption.) And here, I'm pretty sure it's precisely because I'm not obviously involved in the scene—I am, as a female, necessarily, an observer and not plausibly a participant. I found it difficult to get the balance, in het scenes, between writing something that I would find a turn-on, and revealing too much entirely personal information. As a reader, too, I required much more precise targeting when reading het: if the female partner has a reaction that I don't share, or enjoys something that leaves me indifferent, it's harder to remain involved. Again, with slash, I'm not 'in there' in the same way. And because I'm an observer, because I can't identify closely with either male, I can identify with both. I think perhaps that it comes back to the disliking of set patterns...
So there's a modicum of self-examination. Thoughts, anyone? How is it for you?
* strictly speaking, I think I'm mostly a writer who prefers not to get too explicit, but sometimes, well, sometimes the porn *is* the story.
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Date: 2007-03-05 11:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 04:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-05 11:58 pm (UTC)It was then that I realized that I write things that make sense to me. That if I kind of had that character's personality, that's what I would do. There's only but so much you see in a mind that's not your own. :)
I write slash more easily because it's distanced far from myself. I don't know what it's like to be a man, so to write from a man's pov, I have to dig up all my life experiences and use my imagination to act as if I do.
If I wrote from female's pov of view, (like you said) it would feel more personal. I would write and ask myself, are these really my feelings I'm displaying here? If they are, am I giving everyone a looksee into myself? It's a bit worrying. :P
But that's just me.
As far as writing relationship balances and how certain characters interact with each other, that's a whole can of beans I'll have to open up when I get the time. :D
Sorry if I rambled. :P
*must actually look at fic so I can begin editing* Sorry it takes so long for me to send it back. I have a weird sort of anxiety thing. :/
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Date: 2007-03-06 05:01 pm (UTC)I think it is interesting to start noticing what bits of oneself are in the fic, and it's something I only began to do, really, after I started reading
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Date: 2007-03-06 06:19 pm (UTC)Ooohhh, thanks for the link.
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Date: 2007-03-05 11:59 pm (UTC)When I think or muse about the Letterboys in the 213531417 AUs I have inhabiting my head, I have to constantly remind myself that AJ is at least 2-3 inches shorter than JC. Not only do I want balance in the relationship (my ideal would be to have them enjoy being in either position with AJ have a slight preference to top), but also to have them balanced out in terms of height.
I wish I wrote more so I could illustrate what I'm talking about, but you get the picture. I really, really want the balance, is what I'm trying to say, because I'm a bit bored of someone being the instigator thing that you see in het and quite a bit of slash. I enjoy a story more if the sex is more a battle with reciprocation rather than a random handjob in the toilet of a nightclub.
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Date: 2007-03-06 05:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 12:43 am (UTC)I go back and forth from story to story as to who's topping, even in the same pairing. I think that's just because I'd get bored with the same dynamic, especially with JuC. But...if I'm writing kink, JC is almost always topping, regardless of who he's with.
With het, I find it difficult to find the line between vulgar and stereotyped, but I'm working on it...
Thanks for bringing the topic up!
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Date: 2007-03-06 05:37 pm (UTC)With reading, I don't have a particular problem with a character who 'always' bottoms or insists on topping - because okay, in one story, that can be true, but there's always another story with a different take. It's just that in my own fic, I like them to switch - and I could perfectly well have different dynamics in different stories, but I don't think I do that...
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Date: 2007-03-06 12:51 am (UTC)As far as Cosmic Balance is concerned, I have great difficulty with that. I adore Justin, and I'm so not a fan of the Everything is Justin's Fault school of thought, so I don't like stories that seem to go in that direction. However, there's no avoiding reality. I've stood in an Orlando parking lot and listened while Chris sang three songs to a handful of people, and I've stood in an arena and watched Justin command thousands with just his smile. And I've stood in a Buffalo strip club, sandwiched between car dealerships, with 300 people, tops, and watched a local band, opening for JC, refuse to stop playing and get off the stage when their time was up, even though their manager was up there telling them that JC was pissed. I've seen the imbalance up close and personal, and I don't like it, but it is *not* anyone's fault. It is what it is, and they're all five in such different and interesting places. I also think it would make fascinating story-telling, because I think a present-day Timbertrick story, for example, would have to take that sort of thing into account. But I can't write that story, because I don't know how to redress that imbalance without making Justin suffer, which I refuse to do.
That's why I like reunion stories so much. Not because I think they're really going to get back together any time soon, but because it puts them all on relatively equal footing again. That's one reason the Epic was a reunion story. How else could Justin and Lance have gotten back together? And let's be honest, why else would Justin want a group reunion?
Writing sex? That's a subject for another day.
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Date: 2007-03-06 05:48 pm (UTC)For me, the Cosmic Balance thing isn't really a question of "It's all Justin's fault therefore he needs to be Humbled", but there *is* an inequality there (particularly in post-Sync stories) as you've so clearly pointed out, and I need to have that dealt with somehow.
For me, the way to redress the balance between superstar Justin and mere celebrity Lance is to play up the insecurity on Justin's side, or perhaps make him the less sexually confident of the two. Which strikes me as not implausible, given that Justin appears to be essentially a serial monogamist (with, probably, periods of opportunity in between the long-term relationships). I can make him into a Justin who wonders if he ought to have had experience with *more* people in order to be equal to Lance in that respect (even if I'm writing a Lance who hasn't actually had sex with everyone within radius!).
The insecurity business is also an aspect of Justin-characterisation that I like, because it strikes me that a part of his *appeal* is that he needs the audience's adoration, as well as revelling in it, and he *needs* the approval of people he admires, too. (That may be less true today than it was five years ago...) Whereas Lance seems to do what he wants to do and not worry particularly whether the world approves. The same differential would certainly apply in a present-day Timbertrick, though I doubt I'll be writing one.
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Date: 2007-03-06 06:40 pm (UTC)I knew Timbertrick would be hard to write, which why I never attempted before, but I really wanted to because I loved reading it. I had ideas of my own I wanted to write that I haven't seen. :D
I want to have multiple sides of Justin displayed in the story and not just the obvious personality traits to get the story moving along. However, I know that I don't want to do the Everything-Is-Justin's-fault either and I'm trying to find something that will counteract it.
I find it difficult to write Chris because he shows so much of himself, yet at the same time doesn't. I could see him getting into a imbalanced relationship, but because of the way I perceive Chris, it would be unlikely, or wouldn't last long.
Which makes me wonder how to make a somewhat h/c fic work. He has such a strong personality, with a sort of, brittleness, jadedness? I'm not sure of the word I want to use, but I hope you understand. Anyway, sometimes I see vulnerability to him, a glimpse that makes me want to squish him. I want to try to explore that side without, as someone told me, feminism him. Chris isn't very feminine. :P
Hmm, I'm not even sure I've said all I wanted to say... But you got me thinking and thank you for making me stop for second to do it. :D
/rambling XD
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Date: 2007-03-06 11:07 pm (UTC)Ther's an interesting balance with Timbertrick, I think - in the early days the 'power' is with Chris because of the age difference, and that's what has to be counterweighted in the story; in a more recent setting, the 'power' is with Justin because of the enormous degree of success he's enjoying. The balancing act is quite a different one, so I suspect it matters a lot exactly where along the timeline you set the story. Presumably there's a point somewhere in there where they're at equilibrium?
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Date: 2007-03-06 11:51 pm (UTC)I think around between NSA and Celebrity there might be equal footing. But I'm not sure, I was distracted by many RL things around that time. :( However, I think it'll be hard to morph their relationship when needed. Throughout time, I'm sure there were little things that happened where the power levels went up and down, and then the big moments where it more extreme.
I'm going to go look at some behind scenes videos for inspiration. :)
BTW, I've seen people mention Chris looking pissed at an awards show once with the guys, do you know why? I think it was for the VMAs.
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Date: 2007-03-07 08:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-07 01:51 pm (UTC)Exactly! Justin's issues are a huge part of his appeal for me, otherwise he'd just be this boring Golden Child. And you're right, his issues can be the factor that balances things out to some extent. I think the experiences they had as NSYNC, the success, means the other guys have a built-in confidence not dependent on what their status is these days. And while Justin is more confident and relaxed than he was five years ago, he still seems to have the most need for cntinuing success and approval. Although I'm mostly thinking about Chris, Joey and Lance. I can't begin to fathom JC at this point in time.
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Date: 2007-03-08 11:08 am (UTC)As for JC... he's pretty much unfathomable, isn't he. But, in that recent series of radio interviews, rather adorable!
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Date: 2007-03-06 07:48 pm (UTC)I think.
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Date: 2007-03-08 05:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 01:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 05:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 01:32 am (UTC)One thing I do a lot is write stories with reluctant protagonists. It's a dynamic I like playing with, plus from a mechanistic perspective it's a good way to work in conflict and character progression. So the pov character is often the one being chased/seduced/persuaded -- but not all the time, because I'd get bored with that, too.
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Date: 2007-03-06 05:55 pm (UTC)But... Lance doesn't really want to top JC, so that's fair!
Reluctant protagonists are fun. I think one useful thing to do can be to write from the point of view of the person who understands least about what's happening - so that the reader gets there before the character does, but there's ambiguity and tension on the way.
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Date: 2007-03-06 10:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-08 11:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 01:40 am (UTC)However,
I don't like Justin much. Or rather, I don't like the way the media has constructed Justin's image ever since No Strings Attached (At least, in México, *N Sync was often announced as 'Justin Timberlake and his back up singers' which was not Justin's fault). So in my fics I try to balance the fact that there's no way that all that ego-stroking didn't affect Justin somehow, and that he's not to be blamed for everything (since I'm not a fan of bashing)... which ends with me writing a lot around Justin's character. In almost all my fics (And a couple I've co-written) Justin comes out as well intentioned but a bit self-centered.
And now I really have to think about this, and how I write the others compared to this.
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Date: 2007-03-06 06:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-07 01:17 am (UTC)I've been thinking all day about my preferences and the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the reason why I'm more drawn to Chris, Joey, Lance, and to a lesser extent JC, is because we get a less fabricated image for them than for Justin.
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Date: 2007-03-06 02:17 am (UTC)As a reader I hook into characteristics of the characters that I identify with. As I've said before, I'm a Chris fangirl because there's a part of me that wants to be him and identifies with lots of the things that make him so much fun in fic. /narcisim
Plus I find him exceedingly hot - particularly for his quick witted nature.
Part of my rapid fire banter love is totally satisfied by kink where Chris is involved in some kind of power play. I love him when he's protective and I adore fics that use that and then switch the dynamic so that the guy he's been looking after goes all dominant on him. I also love the fics that acknowledge how much shite he's gone through and how much he can sabotage himself, where the other guy refuses to let that happen by taking control.
It's queering the queer I guess. Or, as
But mostly immutable sexual and gender roles get boring pretty quickly. If I wanted that I'd be reading Mills & Boon.
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Date: 2007-03-06 06:04 pm (UTC)Yes - the reading slash 'because it's queer' is a satisfying explanation.
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Date: 2007-03-07 01:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-08 10:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 05:02 am (UTC)I wirite Crhis mostly because I'm atttracted to him. He's my type physically and personality-wise, and so I emphaises those traits I find appealing. When I write Lance, that's mroe myself, more my own pov because there's just somethign there that resonates for me.
I think I like contrast more than balance. I've found in real live that striving to be equal frequently means finding a lowest common denomnator that doesn't do either person justice, and so it rings to true to me when the characters have some difference. I've noticed both in what I read and what I write that that difference is empahisized, sometimes exaggerated byond canon. Like all the emphaisis we place on Chris being short, when he's not really below average - he's just in a group with some taller guys.
And my justin issues are some combination of never likning the most opular one and being squicked by his unnatural resemebalnce to my brother the asshole, and I ned up charaterizing him as my brother a lot of the time.
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Date: 2007-03-06 06:07 pm (UTC)Hmm. I don't want the kind of equal in my slash that involves both parties becoming less than themselves, definitely. Contrast is absolutely what I like, the kind of contrast that means they have different strengths, and bring different things to the relationship, and are 'in charge' depending not on one essentially being dominant but on what the situation requires. Kinda like two superheroes with different powers...
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Date: 2007-03-06 12:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-06 06:11 pm (UTC)And yes, I guess it is inevitable that the writer gets into the story - it's interesting to recognise, though, because *quavery voice on*old and grey as I am *quavery voice off* I'd not seen it until quite recently.
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Date: 2007-03-06 07:35 pm (UTC)A story would be empty if there wasn't anything of the writer in it, even when one doesn't realize it.
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Date: 2007-03-06 11:11 pm (UTC)Absolutely true, yes. I suppose, our own preferences, values, beliefs etc are ingrained within us, and it can be quite hard to see how they emerge when we're not looking for them.
*evil thought* Has your husband read any cheese-free slash?
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Date: 2007-03-07 02:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-03-08 11:12 am (UTC)I'm guessing he had ulterior motives with the porn renting, though.
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Date: 2007-03-06 09:51 pm (UTC)I go back and forth on putting myself in my stories. Sometimes I do it intentionally; if my characters go through an experience that I've been through, the easiest thing is to go with how I experienced it myself and, of course, fine tune it so it actually fits with the character. I wrote a story once about Brian after his heart surgery and since I've had heart surgery myself, it seemed silly not to draw from my own experiences.
And the little things, yes! I think most people do that. Like, if Lance describes the things he finds attractive about JC, then, if it were me writing it, it would most likely be the things that I find attractive about JC. It's like you said, it's hard to make something convincing if you don't really believe in it yourself. Not that it can't be done, but I think it's tougher.
I'm like
It's interesting what you say about sex scenes. I haven't written terribly many of them, but I think I agree with you. It's easier when you can distance yourself a bit from what's going on. I also think how the scene plays out has a lot to do with the characters' dynamic. Kevin and AJ, for example (look at me being the only one to use BSB examples :D) - I think these two could power struggle like whoa in the bedroom. Howie and AJ, too, for that matter. Not so much Howie and Nick. I don't know, it's hard to explain. I'm gonna be thinking about this for a while.
Ack, sorry for rambling!
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Date: 2007-03-06 11:20 pm (UTC)I should think that using your own experience of having heart surgery was incredibly useful in getting the Brian story to work. I did something of that sort myself, in an original fic, using my course of treatment for psoriasis as the setting for the story.
It's interesting how you and
Yeah, the individual characters involved *have* to make a difference to the bedroom dynamics, otherwise... well, otherwise they're not characters, I guess. I wonder whether we pick a pairing because we want to write a particular type of fic, or pick a pairing and find that's what comes out...
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Date: 2007-03-06 11:45 pm (UTC)Most of the time, however, it's the same thing that you said: I write things that I like to imagine. Although, something I love to do is take the perception that I have -- or even a majority of the fandom has -- about something, like the dynamics in a pairing, and turn it around.
I've never written explicit het. In fact, I haven't written any het at all for at least 5 or 6 years. However, not because I find it particularly difficult (although, yes, it probably would be), but because I find slash about 20 times hotter.
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Date: 2007-03-07 08:42 am (UTC)Have you ever realised there's something of You in your stories that you didn't expect to find there?
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Date: 2007-03-09 09:39 pm (UTC)It's certainly hard, there's so much out there already. I read stories that had Lance as a blushing kid, and I also read stories that had him as a serial killer. But you can write against popular opinions, although sometimes it's fun to go with them, too.
Have you ever realised there's something of You in your stories that you didn't expect to find there?
I don't know, honestly. I know that a lot of writers (not only fanfic writers, original ones, too) form some characters -- or even their main characters -- after themselves, but I never did that. There might be small parts of me in my stories, but I doubt that I would find them myself. Maybe if somebody close to me read my stories, they would discover some. However, unfortunately, my sister refuses to read my stuff. :)